
-------- TML Message #1933 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1933
Date:     Tue, 4 Dec 90 12:39:20 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Minimum Armor for Spaceships

I have seen coherent arguments in favor of retaining the spaceship minimum ar-
mor level of 40 in any revised vehicle system.  Permit me to ask a few ques-
tions about how related matters should be handled.  

If we accept that 40 is a "legal" requirement, or a "nice to be safe" engi-
neering standard (and I'll accept either argument as being reasonable), how 
should I handle something like Scott Kellogg's space going fighter planes?  If 
you are part of a planet attempting to declare independence from the Imperium, 
or protect itself from Aslan or Vargr invaders (my Spinward Marches bias is 
showing, I know) or whatever...what penalty do I invoke to make you design 
things for high survivability when you only need them for orbital work, or 
only expect them to last for one combat engagement, or whatever other reason 
that you can think of that would lead you to cut corners on "safe" practices? 
I hesitate to say something CAN'T be doen, when the truth is that it SHOULDN'T 
be done. With all the disparate cultures of the Imperium, I can readily be-
lieve that there would be some where you could find pilots willing to fly 
unsafe but cheap (and therefore numerous) craft in defense of their homeland.  
Need I mention Japan and the Second Global War as an example from ancient 
Earth history? In a similar line, what about the "triple computer for spacego-
ing craft" rule?  At 60 MCr a unit for Model 9's, maybe it's worth only put-
ting one in a fighter and accepting the losses.  (My TL15 Lance and Javelin 
fighters had 75% of their cost sunk into a triple computer system--so with one 
computer you could buy twice as many.)

Good Discussion so far...

Rob Dean

-------- TML Message #1934 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1934
Date:     Tue, 4 Dec 90 13:43:41 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Increases in Local Law Level

This is not particulalry an appropriate topic for the list, but I hope you will
all bear with me for a minute.  I learned from the paper this morning that the
President has just signed into law the new federal ethics act.  As a result of
this, I, as a federal employee, am forbidden to receive any payment for any
article I write or lecture I give, on any subject whatsoever, under penalty
of a $10,000 fine, or the amount received in payment, whichever is greater.
This takes effect as of January 1.  The immediate practical consequence of this
is that I will not be able to sell any vehicle designs for inclusion in the
MegaTraveller Journal, or otherwise write for them, or for Challenge, White Wolf
or (fill in your favorite gaming magazine) and receive even a token payment.
While you can exepct that in fact they will not track me down and punish me
for taking $10 for a vehicle design, is it really worth the possibility of
a $10,000 fine?  

Looks like law level A or higher to me...

Rob (thoroughly disgusted) Dean



-------- TML Message #1935 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1935
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 13:48:21 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate  04-Dec-1990 1333 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: habitats, hulls, ...

RE: Mark Gellis, Trade

I like your idea of having system with *large* number of space habitats.
The impact that such a setup would have on trade is that it's even more likely
that whatever you need, you can get it within your system, hence an even less
need for trade with other systems, mostly stuff that cannot be duplicated.

RE: Metlay, Armor

You give (micro)asteroid collisions as the reason for ships to have armor 40
minimum.  Let's think about this a bit more.  What defenses do ships have
against asteroids?  shields?  not that I'm aware of.  point defense lasers? we
have those, but I've never heard of any rules or scenarios dealing with
avoiding asteroids or microasteroids.
 
I personally would not like to have my main asteroid defense be how thick my
hull was, because there's eventually a bigger asteroid out there with your name
on it!  I'd want some kind of active defense.  First off some kind of
detection, and then some method for destroying or avoiding the asteroid.  how
small of a asteroid are we likely to be able to detect?  how small of an
asteroid is dangerous?  Is there a set of undetectable, but dangerous
asteroids? maybe I'll take the train, yeah...!

PS I agree with all the policy about TML and TDR that's been explained...

RE Shipping

You remember I mentioned slowboat (long orbit robot freighters) shiiping of
bulk cargos intrasystem at a certain TL.  Anyone want to comment on the
possibility of doing this intersystem, perhaps with a laser light sail?

Jim Baranski

-------- TML Message #1936 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1936
Subject: Re: slow boats
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 90 14:41:53 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


James Baranski writes:
> You remember I mentioned slowboat (long orbit robot freighters) shiiping of
> bulk cargos intrasystem at a certain TL.  Anyone want to comment on the
> possibility of doing this intersystem, perhaps with a laser light sail?

I think economically, intersystem, it does NOT make sense.  Why? Because
of the cost of idle inventory all those slowboats travelling 30000 AU's
or more, means.  Were I doing business, I'd have no problem paying
multiple times the price for shipping, so my money wouldn't be tied up
in enroute waiting.  If I turned 50 times the business with the same
cash, I could pay up to 49 times my profit margin to make the deal and
make the same profit.  Not to mention the capitalization cost of all
those slowboats....

James
"if one man digs a posthole in 60 seconds, 60 men can do it in one second"

-------- TML Message #1937 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1937
Date: 4 Dec 90   17:02 EST
From: MKTESWX%GSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: BITNET mail follows

Date: 4 December 1990, 16:59:34 EST
From: MKTESWX  at GSUVM1
To:   TRAVELLER at METOLIUS.WR.TEK.COM

I have been trying to send a file to the TML, but seem unable to get through.
This is a test message to see if anything at all can get to the TML from here.


-------- TML Message #1938 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1938
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 10:04:17 PST
From: Flame Bait <joshua%atherton.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Archive Server for RPG table routines in C


In my last posting, I forgot to give the address of the archive
server which had the routines.  Sorry about that.  The server
can be found at any of these addresses (listed from best to worst):

    archive-server@atherton.com
    archive-server@joshua.atherton.com
    {sun,pyramid,decwrl}!athertn!archive-server
    {sun,pyramid,decwrl}!athertn!joshua!archive-server (rarely works)

Please put these table routines to good use, and tell me what you do with 
them.  Thanks.

Joshua Levy (joshua@atherton.com) [Co-Moderator of the CyberRPG mailing list.]

-------- TML Message #1939 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1939
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:51:38 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Comments




From: William Dow Rieder <wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu>

>Here are some serious reasons for starships to have armor 40:
>1)  The ship has to be able to cruise through the Van Allen belts of gas
>giants without endangering the crew in order to use wilderness refueling.

Clarification please - are you worried about radiation or particulate
impact or both?

From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 03-Dec-1990 1612 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>

Jim Baranski writes:

>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 15:04:23 -0700
>From: FELLOWS STEVEN B -5 CR <sfellows@slate.mines.colorado.edu>
>Subject: (1908) Shipping: Interstellar Trade: Why?
> 
>"A few reasons why I think people will be dispersed throughout space, receiving
>goods from other planets."
> 
>"1)Overpopulation.   'creates a market for food'
>
>The only cure for overpopulation is population control.  Emigration may have
>some effect on it, and feeding it only makes it worse.  I really have a hard
>time believing that it's economical to feed a planet from another planet as a
>matter of course.  You need a *good* reason to have a sizable population on a
>planet that can't support it.  It makes much more sense to put the people where
>the food is.

Unless the planet can not grow its own food because of its composition or
atmosphere but turns out to have a fortune if raw materials and is a handy
place to manufacture things (you can't breath the air anyway so why waste
time, money, and energy on pollution controls).  Moreover, if people are
hungry and can get the money they WILL PAY ANY PRICE for food no matter
where it comes from (homegrown or imported).  I as a trader do not care about
solving their problems (overpopulation) just in selling them the product that
is currently in demand (food and maybe birth control devices?).

>"2)The necessary support industry is not available and would be too costly
>to transplant."
>
>This does happen out of necessity in small colonies or research stations.
>But, given the shipping costs in the players guides, I can't see it being
>economical to import bulk goods.  small amount of goods will always be traded,
>as not much is needed, and it's cheaper to trade for that, but the more that
>you need something, the more important it is to produce it locally.

If you can produce it locally.  Sometimes the "need" for something not
locally produced or producable arises against the will of the populace or
as a result of skillful manipulation of the market (ie make them *think*
that they can't live without even if they can't live with it like cigarettes).

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1940 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1940
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:52:43 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Star Trek Trade System




As an example of a different (but not necessarily better) trade system, here
is a brief overview of Star Trek RPG trade system.  There are 8 basic 
catagories into which all trade items fall.  These are:

Foodstuffs and Agricultural Goods         Cr700        100 SCU
Normal Minerals and Raw Materials         Cr1000        70 SCU
Radioactives and Special Minerals         Cr1500        30 SCU
Drugs and Refined Medicinal Agents        Cr2000        50 SCU
Low Tech Manufactured Goods               Cr1200        90 SCU
Medium Tech Manufactured Goods            Cr2000        70 SCU
High Tech Manufactured Goods              Cr2200        50 SCU
Luxury Items                              Cr250 x d10   10 SCU x d10

The number following each catagory represent the base price/scu and the
base consumption/planet.  The SCU is Standard Cargo Unit (ie a ton in MT).
Each planet is given a rating in each catagory to represent its interest in
those items.  Low ratings imply an abundance of the items (like they're made
or grown there) a high rating implys a low supply and a great demand.  There
are 8 ratings starting at 0.25 and increasing by 0.25 up to 2.00.  The trick
then is to buy on a planet with a low rating in a catagory and transport the
cargo to a planet with a high rating.  For example buying iron on a planet
with a rating of 0.75 would cost Cr750/ton, selling it on a planet with a
rating of 1.5 would get you Cr1500/ton.  While you can buy as much as you
like how much you can sell depends on the base consumption.  In the example
above you could sell 70 tons to the planet at Cr1500/ton the next 70 tons or 
part thereof would by sold at one step lower (1.25) or Cr1250/ton, the next 70 
tons would be at Cr1000/ton and so on.  This is to reflect saturation of the 
market.  Population comes into play as a multiplier of the base consumption.
Very high pop planets multiply consumption by 4, high pop by 2, moderate pop
by 1, low by 0.5, very low by 0.25, and colony or station by 0.1.

Player skills are used to adjust the "apparent" interest a planet has in a
given catagory.  During purchase a successful roll would decrease the rating
by one step, a extreme failure would increase it by one.  On the selling planet
success would increase the rating by one and extreme failure would decrease it
by one.  Other skills could adjust the demand (successful marketing strategy).

As an example of how to translate MT trade clases into this system consider:

MT Trade Class        UTP (Universal Trade Profile)
Agriculturial         1 2 1 4 4 5 6 5 (Moderate)
Industrial            4 5 5 4 3 2 1 6 (Very High)
   where 1 = 0.25   5 = 1.25
         2 = 0.50   6 = 1.50
         3 = 0.75   7 = 1.75
         4 = 1.00   8 = 2.00

Ag planets would have low interest in ag products since they are readily
available.  Similarly they would have a relatively low interest in raw
materials (since they don't do manufacturing extensively).  Drugs and low
tech items would have normal interests while medium and high tech items and
luxury items would by in demand.  The moderate pop is used to modify the
base consumption.
The industrial planet would have a normal demand for food (it produces some
or most of what it needs but imports other types that can't be grown there
plus some to suppliment its own crops) and drugs (most planets will).  A
reduced demand for manufactured goods and an increased demand for raw materials
(but not greatly increased because, obviously, most of the material must be
present to support cheap manufacturing).

These numbers are pulled out of thin air.  Careful thought could set up a
better set of numbers and modify them for things like tech level and
multiple trade classifications.

I've been toying with the idea of using this type of system (modified of
course) in my Traveller game but I have been waiting to see what comes out of
the TDR trade system.  If some (ie more than 1 or 2) of you are interested, I
could flesh this out and recast it in MT terms.  Using this as a basis, you
could use tables to determine the actual cargo type and limit the available
tonnage.  Moreover, there could be some modifiers for certain cargos.  This
was not done in Star Trek RPG to minimize bookkeeping and because there is
no way to list every possible cargo type anyway.

Comments???

TLH


- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1941 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1941
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Interstellar clippers
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 9:52:28 GMT

Brent L. Woods <woodsb@zoo.ecn.purdue.edu> writes:
>  In message 1913, adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
>  >
>  >One thing I haven't seen in Traveller is any equivalent to the old
>  >clippers.  Their function was to get tea from China to Britain as fast
>  >as possible, to get the best prices.
>
>							There are
> different distances that individual jump drives can traverse, but as
> far as the ship is concerned, they all move at the same speed:  one
> jump per week (assuming quick refueling and a need to get somewhere
> in a hurry).  Half that if the ship in question wants to spend some
> time in port for trading, laying in supplies, performing simple
> repairs, and whatnot.

It's the different jump sizes that will make the difference.  A jump to a
system 1 parsec away takes one week; a jump to a system 3 parsecs away
takes 1 week for a jump-3 ship, at least 2 weeks for a jump-2 ship, and at
least 3 weeks for a jump-1 ship.  "At least", because if there isn't a
system in between to allow refuelling, or the ship isn't carrying extra
fuel, it will have to go the long way round.  There may not even be a long
way round; this is especially a problem for jump-1 ships.

>      There *could* be the equivalent of clipper ships, but that form of
> travel would be so ruinously expensive (since the ship won't be making
> any money along the way) that the cargo had better be *extremely*
> valuable (possibly more valuable than I can imagine, and, like Han Solo,
> I can imagine a *lot*.  :-) ).

A fast ship (i.e. one with a large jump number) won't need to make money
along the way, because it won't come out of jump-space along the way.  But
the cargo will need to be very valuable (like tea was to the British
Empire :-) in order to be profitable, because a high jump factor means a
lot of fuel, which means a lower proportion of the ship is cargo space.

>      Actually, now that I think about it a little bit, there *is* (well,
> at least *was*) something like a clipper route in the Imperium.  The
> IISS operates an _Azhanti_High_Lightning_ class cruiser to do nothing
> but carry wine from Earth to Capital for the Emperor's table (I'm told
> that tokay is very good, but *really*...).  Note that it takes a *large*
> agency of a major government to be able to afford this.

Or a large megacorporation.  Several Lightning class cruisers had their
main weapons removed (i.e. all but the turrets) and were sold for use as
big merchant ships.  One kept its main weapons, because the company in
question had good lawyers and found a loop-hole, and now trades with the
Vargr.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1942 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1942
Date:     Wed, 5 Dec 90 11:26:29 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  More Hull Thickness Debate




Answers to several of yesterday's comments on hull thickness.

***************************************************************************

Mark Cook Writes:

> Subject: (1927) Pigs,...er...Windshields in Space!!

> In subject (1922) Rob Dean <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:

>> (Windshield analogy deleted)

> On the other hand, everybody MIGHT have bulletproof glass in their windows
> if they ran the risk of breaking one and SUFFOCATING before they got to
> the next body shop. :-)

Well, maybe so.  Of course, if your car was properly compartmentalized and
your windshield was self sealing...

> Sorry, Rob.  I couldn't resist.

Feel free. I'll do the scut work as soon as we're finished hashing out
the rationalizations.
****************************************************************************
"T. L. Hayes" <al646@cleveland.freenet.edu> writes:

> Subject: (1932) Re: Rob Dean's Posts

> From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>

>> As two sample calculations, I considered a cylindrical pressure vessel 
>> capable of containing one standard atmosphere of pressure (14.7psi)  <Sorry 
>> about the English units--I'm an engineer>.  I considered it to be made of 
>> mild steel, with no special alloys, etc, giving a yield strength of 
>> approximately 50,000psi. I also ignored end cap effects.  I decided that a 
>> safety factor of 2.5 was sufficient, so I put in a value of 20,000psi as 
>> the maximum allowable stress in the skin. At those conditions, a cylinder 
>> 10ft in diameter would need a wall thickness of less than 0.05 inches, which 
>> is less than Traveller armor value 1.  A 100ft diameter cylinder (ship 
>> sized) would require a wall thickness of 0.44 inches, between Traveller 
>> armor values 3 and 4.  50,000psi mild steel would be the equivalent of 
>> armor type A (soft steel).

> I have not designed many ships but I don't see how you go from thickness to 
> armor value (or vice versa).  Again, I have not designed but maybe half a
> dozen ships but if I understand things correctly a 100 ton ship occupies a
> volume of 1350 cubic meters and has a mass of 40 tons.  Multiply by 33 for
> an armor factor of 40 and by 1.25 for soft steel and you get 1650 tons for 
> weight (mass).  I believe a minimum surface polygon enclosing the volume 
> listed would be a sphere 685.6172 cm in radius.  I don't know the density 
> of steel but the specific gravity of iron is about 8 gm/cc (which means 
> the density of steel is about the same?).  If you assume a mass of 
> 1,650,000 gms and calculate the thickness of the skin of the sphere you 
> find it to be 0.0349 cm or about 0.0137 in.  If the density is greater 
> than 8 gm/cc then the thickness will be even less.  Somebody check these 






> numbers, you know how bad I am with numbers!
> Assuming no miscalculations, wouldn't this coupled with your calculations 
> mean that the hulls should have a higher armor rating?

I will have to admit that I didn't do the calculations that way, although I
probably should have to be valid.  Like any good engineer, I merely looked
the answer up in my handbook, which in this case is the design system from
Striker, where each armor value was equated to a certain thickness of hard 
steel.  To get an armor value, you took the thickness, multiplied it by a
fudge factor for the material, and then compared it to the table.  So that's
where those numbers came from.  If somebody would like to do a surface area
to weight correlation for each of the basic configurations, it might be
handy.  In Striker, everything was a rectangular block, so when you mult-
iplied the face dimensions by the armor thickness, you always got a valid
weight.




-------- TML Message #1943 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1943
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 10:32 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: PING! *WHOOOOOSH!* Oh well, so much for life insurance....


Jim and Rob have raised queries about starship armor. I hope that this 
eventually gets codified on the TDR SIG, but one worry at a time....

Rob, there is NO reason that a local navy can't make an armor-8 ship.
Turn the "impossibilities" in the rules into "not really a good ideas"
and there you go. But be sure to add tasks for the ref to nuke the 
resulting rattletraps with passing chunks of matter....

Jim, active defense against micrometeoroids is essentially impossible;
there is a large class of rocks that are too small to see, much less
shoot at and vaporize, that could hull a thin-skinned ship at high speed.
Armor (especially (turn up the gain on the Physics Nullifier, Dow!) "bonded
superdense") is the easiest way of dealing with said problems.

There are circumstances where one must take one's chances, though. Anyone
ever see "Conquest of Space"? It was a 1950s movie about the first manned
mission to mars, about 50/50 lousy filmmaking and truly visionary ideas.
There's a scene where a passing cluster of micrometeoroids whips by the
outbound ship at a fairly high relative velocity while two of the astronauts
are outside performing some sort of instrument adjustment. Ross Martin takes
a high-V frag through the vacc suit and dies horribly. I was about six years
old the first time I saw that film; it scarred me for life. |->

metlay

-------- TML Message #1944 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1944
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:53:28 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: More Comments



From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu>
John H. Kim says:

>To generate the position of each star/planet/moon requires
>six orbital elements for each object of interest, including
>the object you're viewing from.  Furthermore, the formulae
>involved, while not horribly complicated, are a pain to solve.
>I know, I've done it before.  You'd also need other information
>like mass, luminosity/albedo, and on and on to cover the other
>points you mentioned.

>All this is waaaaaay out of the scope of the Traveller rules.
>If you're still seriously considering this and there is no
>commercial software currently available, I'd recommend you
>get a good book on astrophysics (a background in higher
>calculus as about all you need, although more is helpful)
>and devote at least a month of your evenings to the problem.

All this is true however a simplified first cut at the problem might be
to use p^2 = a^3 where p is the period and a is the semimajor axis.  For
example suppose there is a gas giant around which 3 moons orbit.  The middle
moon is where the players are and they want to know where the other moons
are and when the gas giant eclipse the sun(s).  Calculate or set a period for
the middle moon with respect to the sun (this takes into account the motion
of the gas giant ie our moon has a period wrt the stars of 27 days but the
time between full moons is 29 day its period wrt the sun).  If you know the
semimajor axis of the other moon in terms of the semimajor axis of the middle
moon you can calculate the periods (or vice versa).  An example:

    Moon      semimajor axis  period
     1            1/4           1/8
     2             1             1
     3             4             8

Therefore if the middle moon has a period of 8 days then the inner moon is
1 day and the outer is 64.  Alternatively, given the periods you can find the
semimajor axis.  With this knowledge, pick where you want the relative
positions to be initially then as time passes you can estimate where the new
positions will be and can say where in the sky things are.  Using this data
and John Kim's angular size equation you can calculate the percentage of the
orbit of the moon that is in the shadow of the gas giant and therefore how long
the eclipse lasts.  This can be done for each moon.  In fact if you assume
circular orbits (which can be show to be generally the case as high ecc. objects
tend to get there orbits corrected) you can sketch out the system in question
for some aritrary time (like 001-1100) and then calculate how many orbits or
partial orbits have elapsed for each object and figure its current position
for any future time.  This ignores lots of interesting physics but for the
purpose of the game its sufficient.  For more details on this calculation
look up Kepler's Laws in any basic physics or astronomy book.  

If you have a Mac (or access to one) there is a program called Voyager that
would be of some use.  There are PC programs as well, I just can't remember
their names.

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1945 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1945
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 13:29:52 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Of interest -


I found this on newsgroups.rec.games.frg thought some of you may find it
interesting.  The question being responded to initially was what is your
favorite SFRPG?

>In article <999.gaming.role.playing@pro-micol> psavoie@pro-micol.cts.com (Pierre
> Savoie) writes:
>>In-Reply-To: message from a481@mindlink.UUCP
>>
>>   J.D. Frazer has uncovered an interesting point:  there are several dozen
>>RPGs covering science-fiction, but none of these really stands out as the most
>>popular.  I admire stuff put out by GDW (MegaTraveller; 2300; even SPACE 1889!
>>despite the obvious pun in the title) because they do a thorough job before
>>they release a product.  But there's so much else.
>
>As a store owner and rpger, I have to strongly disagree with your
>comment about GDW doing a thorough job on their rpgs. MegaTraveller has
>seven official pages of errata, and at least 100 K of unofficial errata.
>Ask anyone on the Traveller mailing list how well thought out MT is.
>
>2300 AD (Traveller 2300 in a former life) was a nice outline for
>an rpg in its first edition; the second edition is more complete, but
>manages to keep all the endearing stupid cultural details concerning
>the non-european cultures, like the languages the Indian nations speak.
>The Colonial guidebook is a mish mash of styles. Couldn't they afford an
>editor?
>
>1889 is a gross waste of money. Why bother having colour plates
>if all you're going to put on them is pencil crayon drawings? I'll give
>1889 this: they did put out some good modules for it. However, the
>basic game sucks and is blatently padded with useless ugly art.
>
>Now, GDW isn't a *bad* company, just grossly lazy. I can't
>recommend their games to people, though, especially first edition
>GDW games, because quite often, their games are poorly thought out,
>badly playtested  (If they *do* playtest their rpgs) and far too likely
>to require either massive amounts of house rules  or the purchase
>of the second edition that almost inevitably follows a year or two
>after they publish their outline-style first edtion rpgs.
>
>
>						 James Nicoll

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1946 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1946
From: plb%violin.att.com@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: He's at it again
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 9:53:01 EST

Operating System: HP-UX A.B7.00 U
Organization: AT&T-BL, Red Hill System Administration Group (HRSAG)
Location: HR 2C119
Phone: (201) 615-4419
Return-receipt:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]


If I ever figure out these blasted rules.....



How do you calculate the amount of fuel those darn power plants
need using the MegaT rules?   I won't even repeat the figure I came
up with... it was ridiculus!

	Here's the scenario:  
	
		A 2000T ship (volume 27000kl, Weight 600, etc.)
		Jump 3, 3G manuever drives...
		
	What I figured out so far (and poke holes here where needed) is this:
	
	To obtain Jump 3 with this ship I need:
	
		80 Jump units, for a total volume of 1080kl, and a weight
		of 2160 tons.  This would need 800kl of fuel (I want this
		ship capable of 2 jumps at jump 3.)
		
		So far so good... ( I think )
		
	To get 3G of manuever I need:
	
		160 Maneuver drive units, for a total volume of 2160kl,
		and a weight of 5600T.  Power required would be 11,200MW.
		
	Now here is where I get screwed up:
	
	I want there to be double the amount of power available than
	what engineering needs for agility considerations.  Therefore I
	want my powerplant to generate 22,400MW.  Looking at the charts
	I find that I need 3734 fusion power plant units at a volume of
	3734kl, and figuring out fuel I'm not so sure about... 
	
	Rob? Metlay? Anybody out there want to help a High Guard refugee?
	
- - -- 
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
" Peter L. Berghold  " INTERNET: plb@violin.att.com "+1(908)615-4419   "
" System Adminstrator" BIX     : peteb              """"""""""""""""""""
" AT&T, HRSAG        " DELPHI  : berghold """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

-------- TML Message #1947 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1947
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: New TDR SIG mailing lists!
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:09:13 PST

At the risk of stealing some of TML's thunder (which is not my intention),
and with lots of help and advice from Dan Corrin (thanks Dan!), I have set
up mail lists for all of the TDR SIGs.  It will no longer be neccessary for
any of the SIG members to maintain individual mail lists for the SIGs they
belong to.  Simply mail to the appropriate SIG E-mail address, and the
letter will automatically be distributed to all the current members of
that SIG.  The SIGs, their addresses, and their current members are:

SIG: TDR Administration (not really a SIG)
SIG Address: tdr_admin@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Mark Cook
  Metlay

SIG: New Character Classes
SIG Address: tdr_char_class@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Robert Poole
  Andrew Salamon

SIG: New Character Generation Rules
SIG Address: tdr_char_gen@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Andy Coombes
  Iain Fogg
  Burton Choinski
  Eric Sergienko
  Dan Corrin
  Robert Poole
  Carl Rigney
  Nick Sylvain

SIG: New Character Skills
SIG Address: tdr_char_skill@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Burton Choinski
  Eric Sergienko
  Metlay
  Roger Opperman
  Paul Baughman

SIG: New Combat Rules (personal, vehicle, & space)
SIG Address: tdr_combat@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Adrian Hurt
  Iain Fogg
  Mark Cook
  Tony Hayes
  Bertil Jonell
  Roger Opperman
  Carl Rigney

SIG: New Equipment (non-weapon)
SIG Address: tdr_equip@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Eric Sergienko
  Mark Cook
  Metlay
  Paul Baughman

SIG: Rules for Medicine, Healing, et.al.
SIG Address: tdr_medical@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Eric Sergienko
  Mark Cook
  Nick Sylvain

SIG: Detailing Physical Consistancy for TDR
SIG Address: tdr_physics@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bart Massey
  George William Herbert
  Tony Hayes
  Robert Poole

SIG: New Task Rules
SIG Address: tdr_tasks@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Jerry Williams
  Dan Corrin
  Metlay

SIG: Trade & Commerce
SIG Address: tdr_trade@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Dan Corrin
  W. Dow Rieder
  Steven Fellows
  Metlay
  Carl Rigney
  Charles McGrew
  Tony Hayes

SIG: New Vehicle Designs
SIG Address: tdr_veh_list@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Pale Dale
  George William Herbert
  Robert Dean

SIG: New Vehicle Design Rules
SIG Address: tdr_vehicle@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Burton Choinski
  Dan Corrin
  W. Dow Rieder
  Pale Dale
  George William Herbert
  Robert Dean

SIG: New Weapon Designs
SIG Address: tdr_weapons@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Adrian Hurt
  Iain Fogg
  Mark Cook
  Tony Hayes
  Bertil Jonell
  Roger Opperman
  Metlay

SIG: World Building Rules
SIG Address: tdr_world@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Burton Choinski
  Dan Corrin
  Dave Allen
  Carl Rigney

Note that the "tdr_admin" SIG is for requests, complaints, and comments to
TDR SIG administrators, and is not likely to get bigger. :-)

If anyone has mailer problems to these addresses, it may be correctable by
changing "@hpcvss.cv.hp.com" to "%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com".  This
has solved the problem in at least one case.

I will be administering the mail lists.  If you want to join one or more
of these SIGs, send a request to "tdr_admin" and you'll be added.

These mailing lists are already up and running, so they can be used
immediately.

Later,

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

-------- TML Message #1948 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1948
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 14:24:45 -0900
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Armour Factors...


The 100 displacement ton sphere will have a hull surface area of
615 m^2.  At a (sphere wt= x 0.8?) normal hull, it would weigh
1320 tons.  That's 2.15 tons/m^2.  Or 215 g/cm^2.
	Now, I don't know how much you all know about real
spacecraft design, but 200 g/cm^2 is at the low end of what's healthy
for long-term radiation exposure in deep space*.  Permanent facilities
ought to be more.  (about a factor of two more, maybe three.  But
200 g/cm^2 is in the right ballpark).

	WHat do current spacecraft weigh? about 2 g/cm^2, ranging up
to 3.  Why do they get away with this?  They stay within earth's magnetic
field (which deflects both solar radiation and Galactic Cosmic Radiation or
GCR) and out of the high-radiation Van Allen belts.

	So, to answer the 'why' of 'why are they that thick' we can plead
crew safety 8-), and the 'how can i make it less'; if it's for near-orbit use,
and you don't mind a (lightly) irradited crew, it can be a lot less.

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu

* deep space radiation falls under two sections; that produced by the sun
in solar flares (intermittent) and the cosmic ray background, constant
in the galaxy.  Generally, the same amount of shielding will keep 
flare doses at safe short-exposure levels and the continuous GCR at
safe long-exposure levels.  I can copy some NASA info on this for anyone
that wants it.

-------- TML Message #1949 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1949
Date:     Wed, 5 Dec 90 21:48:45 PST
From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.Claremont.edu>
Subject:  Re:  (1944) More Comments

[ Good idea from T. L. Hayes about using only orbit periods to
  determine eclipses deleted]

If you're only interested in an occasional eclipse or two,
it's a great idea.  The impression I got from the original
letter (I don't save these for much more than a day so I
can't check) was that he wanted to know what the night sky
would look like given a certain time and place.  If you use
T. L. Hayes's simplification for this, you get the boring
(in my opinion) result of all the planets/moons/suns lined
up in one line in the sky.  I like to imagine the view at
Regina as something like the Saturn mosaic JPL released,
with a moon here and there.  I suppose you could fake it.

I've got the Saturn mosaic as a very well done digitized
bitmap (640x480x256) if anyone's interested.  You can even
pick out some of the background stars (I could almost swear
one group is the Pleiades...)
- - --
John H. Kim
jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu
uunet!jarthur!jokim

-------- TML Message #1950 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1950
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 07:58:16 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Correction



The other day I said:

>is about the same?).  If you assume a mass of 1,650,000 gms and calculate the
>thickness of the skin of the sphere you find it to be 0.0349 cm or about 
>0.0137 in.  If the density is greater than 8 gm/cc then the thickness will be
>even less.  Somebody check these numbers, you know how bad I am with numbers!
>Assuming no miscalculations, wouldn't this coupled with your calculations 
>mean that the hulls should have a higher armor rating?

What I meant was 1,650,000 kgs.  This gives a thickness of 33.27 cm.  This
looks more like what it should.  I told you I was bad with numbers.  Hard
to believe I graduated college!  Fortunately, in physics and astronomy you
do most of your work with symbols (which I don't have problems with, really!).

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1951 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1951
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 08:00:34 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: New Service - Bounty Hunter



An addition to the basic character services - Bounty Hunter

First my version of College

College -
Admission  7+    DM +2 if Edu 9+
Success    9+    DM +2 if Int 8+
OTC        8+    DM +1 if Soc 8+
NOTC       9+    DM +1 if Soc A+
Honors     10+   DM +1 if Int A+

Roll Twice - Three times if Honors

College Skills Tables -
Roll   Skill
1      Academic*
2      Mental*
3      Physical*
4      Computer
5      Inborn*
6      Interpersonal*

* Cascade skill as shown in MT Players' Manual except:
  Add Computer to Academic
  Add Carousing to Interpersonal



               Bounty Hunter
Enlistment          6+
DM +1 if          End 7+
DM +2 if          Dex A+

Survival            7+
DM +2 if          Int 8+

Special Duty        6+

Reenlist            5+

1. Personal Development Table    2. Service Skills Table
Bounty Hunter                    Bounty Hunter
1 Physical                       1 Gun Cbt
2 +1 Dex                         2 Vehicle
3 Mental                         3 Vice
4 Vice                           4 Hand Cbt
5 Hand Cbt                       5 Blade Cbt
6 Carousing                      6 Gun Cbt

3. Advanced Education Table      4. Advanced Education Table (Education 8+)
Bounty Hunter                    Bounty Hunter                    
1 Explor                         1 Interpers
2 Environ                        2 Technical
3 Tactics                        3 Environ
4 Interpers                      4 Space
5 Streetwise                     5 Medical
6 Inborn                         6 Interrog

Mustering Out Tables             Cash Tables
Bounty Hunter                    Bounty Hunter                    
1 Low Psg                        1 -------
2 +1 Int                         2   5,000
3 Weapon                         3  10,000
4 Weapon                         4  50,000
5 High Psg                       5 100,000
6 Hunter                         6 100,000
                                 7 200,000

Hunter is aa 150 ton ship designed especially for Bounty Hunters.

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1952 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1952
Date:     Thu, 6 Dec 90 10:04:26 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Minimum Armor Kamikazes

I realized yesterday that I had forgotten to mention one of the most obvious
circumstances in which vehicle armor would not matter--in the robot controlled
vehicle.  

"Lost another 500 robofighters, Charlie".

"Guess I'll start sending the next of kin letters to Madhidkarun Robotics, eh?"

Rob Dean


-------- TML Message #1953 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1953
From: chk@alias (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: Re: (1935) habitats, hulls, ...
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 10:53:11 EST

> I personally would not like to have my main asteroid defense be how thick
> my hull was, because there's eventually a bigger asteroid out there with
> your name on it!

I agree, you still need an active defense system of some sort. However, no
matter how sophisticated your sensors are, there will be space dust smaller
than they can detect. There is also a size below which there is no point
trying to destroy incoming objects because they are too hard to hit.

The objective of a ship designer will be to strike a happy medium; Have an
active defense system that can destroy or evade larger incoming objects, and
a passive system (shields, armour) that can handle the objects that are too
small for the active system to deal with.

Ideally you want a fair amount of overlap, in case your active system misses
something (or is overloaded by sheer volume of debris). Hence the reason for
a large amount of armour on ships.

- - -- 
C. Harald Koch  VE3TLA                Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada
chk%alias@csri.utoronto.ca      chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu      chk@chk.mef.org
"Open the Zamboni! We're coming out!" - Kathrin Garland and Anson James, 2299


-------- End of TML Messages --------

